A quick question to the UK readers - others are very welcome to comment on the issue.
Are you wearing a poppy?
Some background: poppies are sold and worn very widely indeed during this time of year. The charity thus aided is the Royal British Legion, which cares for ex-forces veterans. Everybody appearing on television wears one - except for the occasional Sinn Féin representative.
I don't wear one. I think it's fundamentally wrong to commemorate the veterans of one side. These soldiers may have been conscripts and they may have been enthusiastic killers. In a sense, this doesn't matter so much - they're all in need of help. However, by singling out one side, we're assuming that all others were enthusiastically on the wrong side and the poppy sellers say things like 'support our boys'. We're also enabling successive governments to get away without caring for veterans properly, and (though this may not be the intention, it's certainly how many people feel), it's a visible sign of patriotic chauvinism, hence Nick Griffin's latest comments.
I'm of Irish heritage. It's less than a hundred years since members of my family fought in a bloody war of independence against the UK, and the history of the past 600 years has been one in which the British fought some just wars and an awful lot of unjust ones. Individual soldiers are largely not to blame, but I just can't bring myself to participate in this way. I'd rather pay more tax to fund NHS care for ex-servicemen, vote for a government which doesn't send boys to illegal and/or pointless wars, or support a global veterans' charity.
It's an emotive issue, and I'm aware that my stance may not be entirely rational, but it's how I feel. Some of these soldiers saved the West from the Nazis - others took aim at my family. However, the appeal's couched in terms like 'our boys' and 'our heroes'. They're not my heroes.
The alternative is the White Poppy, the Peace Pledge Union's attempt to commemorate the fallen of all sides while opposing the concomitant potential glorification of militarism apparent in the red poppy campaign - although I'm not a pacifist.
There's one final irony to the current Red Poppy campaign: while soldiers on all sides are dying in Afghanistan, millions of real red poppies are flowing out of the country as heroin, seemingly unaffected by the presence of hundreds of thousands of troops, arriving here and devastating thousands of lives.
9 comments:
I disagree Voley.
I wear a poppy proudly, to commemorate ALL that have died in mindless warfare. It wasn't just Brits who fought in the fields where poppies now grow, as you well know. Anyone who went out to war is pretty much my hero - no way I would have done it.
Governments getting away without caring for veterans properly - probably true. But the RBL does an excellent job with the money raised from poppy sales - I've seen it for myself in a place called Mais House down near where I used to live. Stopping that income isn't the problem with government not helping out IMHO.
The White Poppy is for weak-wristed, soft liberals who need to grow a pair.
Some more points though - I don't agree with EVERY TV presenter basically being forced to wear one, because it would "look bad" if they don't. It should be personal choice, and whilst I don't agree with not wearing one there should be the option to do so.
FINALLY I would only start selling poppies from November 1st. Seeing people on TV wearing them from the middle of October just seems a bit...trying too hard, I suppose.
And if you saw the size of the one Baroness Warsi was wearing on QT a few weeks back, for fucks sake.
Ewar, that's a serious response to a serious question. A few points though:
The poppy explicitly doesn't commemorate all the dead: just the British and perhaps (though it's not clear) their allies. Have a look at their website. Also, the poppy funds only British veterans - like it or not, it's for one group only. If it really was for all the fallen, I'd wear one, as I feel that most soldiers are the working-class victims of elite manoeuvrings, fooled into doing their bidding, or driven to the army by poverty and a lack of other opportunities. There's always a core of men who just want to kill people, of course, but it's probably not huge.
I wouldn't claim heroism as an automatic quality of the soldier. It depends on your definition, I suppose, but plenty didn't want to go (most, I hope), and not all performed heroically (as Blackadder puts it, some of those pygmies were armed with frightfully sharp fruit). However, facing death is something that should be admired.
That said - isn't conscientious objection also heroic? Imagine those men who refused to fight in WW1, for instance - against 99% of public opinion - because they followed their political convictions or consciences. That seems quite heroic to me, whether or not they were right (in the case of WW1, I think they were - WW2: wrong).
Following on from that - surely wearing the white poppy is a smaller way of standing up for a set of beliefs? It doesn't detract from sympathy for the fallen, but makes a wider point about war - I don't find it limp at all.
I've no disagreement with you on the care RBL provides - but I do think (as I do with most serious charity) that they shouldn't have to. If we paid enough tax and had decent governments (I know, I know), we wouldn't need charities. I'd make sure that veterans weren't dependent on the goodwill and spare change of passers-by, and that old ladies wouldn't have any spare money to send to bloody donkey sanctuaries.
Agree with you on the spread of the poppies: they lose their impact if worn for too long. According to today's Guardian, an MP was seen with one at the beginning of October - before they go on sale, so he may have saved the previous year's one. The wanker.
I noticed the Warsi one too. It really pissed me off - as though there's a competition to care more than the other party, or people who only have small poppies. FFS!
I'm aware that poppies only help the British veterans. (and possibly allies) Wearing one to commemorate all the fallen is just my own particular thoughts on the matter.
Indeed, it is the 'facing death' thing that I admire. Conscientious objectors I have no problem with - after all, I would have been one. In my opinion though that is not as heroic as going into battle.
White poppies - not for me. Some wars are necessary - as you rightly point out by your objection to objectors (try saying that out loud) during WW2.
One day I'll catch up with you and tell you my grand scheme to merge charities into groups, which always makes a good dinner-party talking point.
(I have blogged,although it isnt showing on readers. FFS!)
"However, facing death is something that should be admired." - Of course you know that this is a very controversial statement but even if you are expecting my reply, I cannot keep quiet. Facing death in this way might be many things, but heroic? Admirable? How and why?
Hello again! I wasn't very clear: I think that doing whatever you think is your duty knowing that it may kill you is admirable, and that 'facing', i.e. accepting the imminence of death certainly is - I definitely don't think that trying to kill people is admirable or heroic.
I see. I disagree, but I understand.
I often find myself speechless when faced with discussions about pacifism, especially when people smarter than me turn out to believe in the existence of a just war. So I fall back to other people's words, to Howard Zinn who, if I believed in admiring people, would be what I'd regard as a hero. He says: "It is the great challenge of our time: How to achieve justice, with struggle, but without war."
The Second World War is as close to a just war as you are ever going to get. The crimes of the Nazi party being ended is a just cause. But, to say that we fought the war because of the Holocaust is a gross and decieving use of hindsight. Britain did not fight the war to end the Holocaust (If we had then perhaps less would have died, perhaps more, but almost certainly less civilians) Britain's record is not even particularly rosy in regard to helping Jews, homosexuals, Romany etc escape areas they were persecuted in and the majority of troops had little to no idea of the crimes against humanity that the Nazi Party and her allies were commiting.
However, I think that commemorating the soldiers who fought in the Second World War, who were largely drawn from volunteers is a good thing to do. Also the sheer number of veterans means that any charity that can support tax help for them is a worthwhile one. My problem with the poppy is that it has gone from being a symbol of the sacrifice of a generation to a celebration of 'our heroes' ('our boys' being doubly offensive as the armies have an increasing proportion of females within their ranks)
I personally find it hard to wear a poppy because it is, undeniably, a symbol of support for action within Iraq, The Falklands, and Northern Ireland as well as the World Wars, Kosovo etc...
Professional soldiers should be financially supported by the state and their actions should on no account be free from criticism. It is no argument to say that soldiers are brave and only following orders in unpopular wars. People following orders is what sparked the inferno of horror that swept through Europe in the thirties and forties. We should be very careful about blurring the lines between commemoration and celebration.
Well, I dare to offer a bit different point of view - you see, gentlemen, I´ve never seen war, but I have seen what it can turn people into. My father was a soldier. As a member of special forces (loose translation) he went through war in Lebanon. It turned him into drunkard and a violent person with damaged health. For a decade he tormented my mum, sis and me with what could be classified as domestic violence. Do I think he is a hero?
Yes.
For rather then killing mindlessly, he managed to save lives of people he was in charge of and got them safely home. That is not so easy in crossfire of Katyuchas.
For in the other operations he was in, he again worked more for saving people.
For despite all the terrible things that happened there, he managed to move on and doesn´t hurt us anymore; he stopped to drink and the tender and kind man he once was is showing again.
That said, were there any world foundation for veterans, I would buy a poppy or whatever - I know in the times he was haunted by his demons, we were very much short in money and the government didn´t give a damn. Starving and seeing my mum begging relatives for food is not the nicest memory I have.
Out of sight out of mind. Without the visual of poppies kids will be even more ignorant about history and politics.
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